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Re: >> It looks like there is no writer for this format, only a parser. There is the "Quake 3" map format which should be available for writing Q3 maps. Can you see that option in the save dialog or is it broken somehow? |
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Ah sorry, I read again, and I the map is indeed saved as Q3, but not using the what is called "legacy" format (without brushDef keywords). So your request is to add an exporter for that format? Is any game (yours?) actually still using that format? And there I thought the Q3 format is old already, so nobody would want to write the one before that. |
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> So your request is to add an exporter for that format? Yes > Is any game (yours?) actually still using that format? Yes, all our maps (Unvanquished, https://unvanquished.net/ ) are using that format. Also some of our tools expect that format, for example: https://github.com/DaemonEngine/Chameleon Note: NetRadiant selects the quake3 non-legacy brush format when the game uses the quake3 format and `brush_primit` is set to 1 in `<game>` element in .game file and the legacy brush format otherwise (`brush_primit` not being set or being 0). |
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I see. It's not exactly matching the idTech4 focus that DarkRadiant is trying to deliver, but I guess it won't be too much effort to add a separate "Quake 3 (Legacy)" format which uses that older syntax. |
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I looked at some NetRadiant gamepacks to see how much games use the legacy Q3 format and how much games use the non-legacy Q3 format, and the result is surprising: # 1 gamepacks with legacy Q3 brush format (maptypes="mapq3" brushtypes="quake3") ## 1.1 distributed with NetRadiant (expected to be working) darkplaces.game (Darkplaces based, Quake) et.game (Wolfenstein: Ennemy Territory) neverball.game (Neverball) nexuiz.game (Nexuiz) oa.game (OpenArena) osirion.game (Osirion) smokinguns.game (Smokin' Guns) trem.game (Tremulous) turtlearena.game (Turtle Arena) unvanquished.game (Unvanquished) warsow.game (Warsow) wolf.game (Return to Castle Wolfenstein) wop.game (World of Padman) q3.game (Quake III Arena) q1.game (Quake) quakelive.game (Quake Live) zeq2lite.game (ZEQ2 Lite)) ## 1.2 not distributed with NetRadiant (from http://svn.icculus.org/gtkradiant-gamepacks/) ja.game (Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy) jk2.game (Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast) sof2.game (Soldier of Fortune 2: Double Helix) stvef.game (Star Trek Voyager : Elite Force) ## 1.3 not distributed with NetRadiant, generated by GtkRadiant using synapse.config and <api name="map">mapq3</api> (expected to be working, using synapse.config with mapq3, GtkRadiant also support some other games already listed in NetRadiant list, so I keep this list short) urt.game (UrbanTerror) ## 1.4 not distributed but generated by GtkRadiant using synapse.config and <api name="map">mapq3</api> (from http://svn.icculus.org/gtkradiant-gamepacks/) reaction.game (Reaction) # 2 gamepacks using non-legacy Q3 brush format (maptypes="mapq3" brushtypes="quake3" brush_primit="1") ## 2.1 distributed with NetRadiant (expected to be working) xonotic.game (Xonotic) # 3 gamepacks using non-legacy Q3 brush format but with unrecognized obsolete .game file syntax (maptypes="mapq3bp" brushtypes="quake3bp") without support in GtkRadiant neither NetRadiant (if it existed, it was removed before 2006 and the start of git history) ## 3.1 not distributed with NetRadiant, from http://svn.icculus.org/gtkradiant-gamepacks/ jabp.game (variant for ja.game) Well, in a way, this does not surprise me: gamepacks lack a lot of care, what is rarer than a Radiant contributor is a gamepack contributor. :D So all those gamepacks are just relying on configurations from the very first days and then mappers read and write the legacy Q3 brush format. I don't know when the “Alternative Texture Projection” (non-legacy Q3) brush format was added, but the older commit in GtkRadiant history from 2006 already has it with brush_primit="1" syntax support (but did not have maptypes="mapq3bp" neither brushtypes="quake3bp" syntax support). https://github.com/TTimo/GtkRadiant/commit/12b372f89ce109a4db9d510884fbe7d05af79870#diff-3168e181773635fd4b28bd065f201919f62743a16ac3156144208cbc3275d622R283-R285 GtkRadiant never enables the non-legacy format by default, instead it displays an option to enable it in project preferences saying “Use brush primitives in MAP files (NOTE: experimental feature, required by the texture tools plugin)”, and does not write the "brush_primit" key in the game file but in the "user0.proj" file, so from GtkRadiant point of view this is not a per-game option but a per-project option. Also it gives an hint the usage of that non-legacy format was motivated by a plugin, and I don't know what this plugin is for… So it looks like only Xonotic is making use of the new format by default (and has a very active mapping scene). That said: - I may have missed some game packs update that never reached me - some per-game Radiant may have switched on the new format - the new format can be switched on and off in both GtkRadiant and NetRadiant when mapping for the same game - some game may give instructions to mapper to switch to non-legacy format as first configuration step But: - all idTech 3 derivatives seem to all use the legacy brush Q3 format - some non-id Tech 3 derivatives also use some id Tech 3 format and among them, only Xonotic made non-legacy Q3 format the default brush format So the big picture is that there is in the wild maybe thousands of maps with the non-legacy brush format, and dozens of thousands maps with the brush legacy format. Maybe at some point it may be useful to change the naming, because the one named “Legacy” in DarkRadiant is the default one outside of DarkRadiant, when the one not named Legacy in DarkRadiant is the one named ”Alternate” or ”Brush Primitive” outside of DarkRadiant. |
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Sounds like moving to the "non-legacy" format would be entirely possible but game maintainers never cared to define it as the default. Anyhow, I'll probably rename the brush format then too, seeing that it is much more widely used than the one using the texture projection. I'll follow the naming to use Quake 3 as what I called legacy before, and to use "Quake 3 with BP" as the newer one. |
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At any rate, thanks for doing the leg work and checking out the game packs. |
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> Sounds like moving to the "non-legacy" format would be entirely possible but game maintainers never cared to define it as the default. Yes that's the point. Game packs are lacking a log of care. Usually, once someone has a proof of concept, no one modify it for 15 years. :D Projects like Xonotic are very active and have people taking the time to investigate the various options so I'm not surprised they did the switch. > I'll follow the naming to use Quake 3 as what I called legacy before, and to use "Quake 3 with BP" as the newer one. That sounds good though I'm not sure if “BP” is explicit enough. For example it took me some time to figure out why there was a “jabp.game” game pack, until I discover the file named `radiant/bp_dlg.cpp` in GtkRadiant source tree which is the dialog dealing with format mismatch (if brush primitives format is used or not). What do you think would be better to select the default writing brush format in a DarkRadiant .game file? It looks like in NetRadiant the map writing format is set with the `type` key (while previously in NetRadiant this key usually contained the game name), and it looks like the maptypes, brushtypes and patchtypes keys are not used anymore in DarkRadiant. NetRadiant sets the `type` key to the game name, and `maptypes` to mapq3, `patchtypes` to `brushtypes` to quake3 and `brush_primit` to 1 to set the quake3 map format with brush primitives, but given DarkRadiant uses the `type` key for the map format, with possible values being `doom3`, `quake4` or `quake3` if I'm right, maybe the “brush primitives quake 3 format” would be set with `type="quake3bp"`? We have a tool to produce game packs for various editors (https://github.com/Unvanquished/unvanquished-mapeditor-support/tree/master/mkeditorpacks), so I can adjust the DarkRadiant game file writing accordingly. |
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> What do you think would be better to select the default writing brush format in a DarkRadiant .game file? Indirectly, yes, through the format. The brushtype attribute itself is no longer in use, as far as I'm aware. DarkRadiant's goal has never been to support all those games like GtkRadiant or other flavours, we specialised on idTech4, and I prefer not having to re-implement any of that logic. Right now, the way DR needs to be set up is to define a .game file for Unvanquished with game type "unvanquished" instead of "doom3", and DR would have a specialised Map Format for Unvanquished built in. This map format is named "unvanquished" and dictates how the brushes and patches need to be written. This approach makes it possible to save a map using a different format by selecting it in the "Save As" dialog, that flexibility would get lost if the Q3 brush exporter is always using the format defined in the currently open game - that's why I went down that road and decoupled the loaders from the .game file iirc. Do you have a custom fork for DarkRadiant set up for Vanquished? Would a plugin work for you, or are you working with vanilla DR? I could help you set up the format classes, in case it's not obvious from the examples in DR (like the Quake 4 format). |
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Second option is to change the Q3 exporter (or add a dedicated one for the "legacy" brush format) and your game is using that one instead of a custom one. Unvanquished .game file refers to gametype "quake3", and the "quake3" map format writes the older brush syntax by default. |
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> Do you have a custom fork for DarkRadiant set up for Vanquished? Would a plugin work for you, or are you working with vanilla DR? We don't have custom fork for DarkRadiant, and we don't need a plugin for Unvanquished as far as I know. We have a generator that generates a game pack for the various editors we care about. Basically for DarkRadiant it's a mater of producing a DarkRadiant .game file and an .def file in Doom3 format describing entities, both seems to now be working correctly with vanilla DR. You'll find them there: https://github.com/Unvanquished/unvanquished-mapeditor-support/tree/master/build/darkradiant I'm not sure we need to set an “unvanquished” type because the map format we use is exactly the same as the quake3 one. Most Quake 3 derivatives including Unvanquished make special efforts to not break the formats anyway. It looks like all that is needed is a “legacy brush” writer being named “quake3” type, and the current brush writer being named quake3 alternate or something like that. If DarkRadiant provides “doom3”, “quake4”, “quake3” and “quake3-alternate” types, a game like Unvanquished would just set « type="quake3" » and a game like Xonotic would just pick « type="quake3bp" » in .game file without more game specific code. I'm not sure “quake3-alternate” is a good name but you probably see the point. And in map exporter window, people would be able to chose between “Doom 3 Map”, “Quake 3 Map”, “Quake 3 Map (alternate)”, “Quake 4 Map”. I see no need in having an “Unvanquished Map” option there. I have no idea what would be the best name for the “quake 3 alternate“ format though. > Unvanquished .game file refers to gametype "quake3", and the "quake3" map format writes the older brush syntax by default. That would be the best solution, because that's basically what any game using quake3 format would expect when not knowing there are in fact two quake3 formats. |
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The "Quake 3" format can now be selected from the list of map formats when using File > Export Map. Games with "quake3" game type now also default to use the Quake 3 tex def format. This is now waiting for a round of testing. |
- Anonymous
